lefty.crupps' GNUski bacon

about GNU/Linux, Perl programming learning (I quit Java), and other things i want to rantagonize about.

02 March 2008

KDE-based Super-Distro, where are you!? Somebody save me!

I love KDE, the Kool Desktop Environment. It is slick and quick and has an application for just about every need that I have; it has options and ease-of-understanding that no other Desktop Environment has. Unlike GNOME (which seems to take more and more cues from MSWindows), KDE doesn't hide the system from the user. KDE doesn't dumb-down for me, but nor does it demand that I set everything up manually a la Fluxbox or another minimal window manager (which are fine but not for me, at least not today nor the last 5 years). KDE is grand, and the next generation KDE4 releases will be fantastic.

At home I have been using Kubuntu for the last three releases; before that I used Mepis, and before that was SuSE Linux. At work I have been all Debian Testing for my desktop, running of course KDE. My Asus EeePC is now running Debian Testing as well, with KDE.

But none of these Linux distributions seem to really *get* KDE. Here are my gripes about these, and a few other, distros:

SuSE: I started with you back in the SuSE 8.1 days, and although you gave me Linux and helped me into this world, your RPM hell was too hellish for me. The moment I tried to add third-party multimedia apps, my system fell apart. Every time. No more of you.

Mepis: I thought Mepis (aka SimplyMepis) was a toy -- it was too easy to use in comparison to the hell I was experiencing with SuSE on my other machine. I soon learned that Debian-based distros are really just that good! But over time, Mepis grew boring as I learned how customizable KDE and Linux are, and how Linux works, and I found Mepis wanting to be a refuge for Windows users. I was over that already, and I disliked the closed-source code that made up its tools. Then, after the great 3.1 release, future releases had a Kicker featuring a fishtank, and I was done with Mepis (yes, the fishtank can be removed, but really??).

Arch: I installed this on my laptop and it was fine, but I found its package list lacking. Based on Slackware GNU/Linux, it was fast, but its wifi tools were difficult and I spent too much time trying to connect to the same hotspot every Thursday. Done with you (for now, I suppose).

Kubuntu: My current home setup is Kubuntu. Pretty good selection of applications (ok, GREAT) and also based on Debian (but with painful deviations), but the interface is kinda dumbed down, I am tired of blue themes every time I install a new distro. Not your fault, I suppose, and I know that the Kubuntu development team is creating a distro via volunteers (as are most every other GNU/Linux distribution, of course). But you're the beat-down little sibling of the corporate-driven Ubuntu, and I am tired of living in the Ubuntu shadow. Kubuntu is still the distro I recommend for Linux newbies, but its a pain trying to explain to them the difference between Kubuntu and Ubuntu, KDE and Gnome, and why some of the instructions on the forum will work, when others won't, and how the hell are they to know the difference? As an experienced and interested geek of the Desktop Linux scene, I get it -- but do new users? I fear not. Kubuntu needs to really shine, and I fear it cannot do this in its current situation. Plus, software with the *buntus is only updated every six months (bug fixes come much quicker, obviously, but generally not new major versions of software), and the updates in these six months generally require a reinstall of the whole OS and apps. Not a bad move perhaps, but not always fun either (ok, usually it is, i know...)

Debian: The great godfather of Linux, in my opinion -- Debian begets all of the usable distros, but its KDE is just so vanilla. Yes, I know that the point of Free Software is to make it your own, which I invariably do, and I suppose being the largest software project in the world somewhat demands a basic setup to satisfy the most users, but I wish I could run Debian and be impressed with the out-of-the-box look. Debian Testing does, however, supply me with a steady stream of updated software, which I appreciate, but very little innovation in how the desktop looks and acts (please, tell me if i am wrong!)

Linux Mint: OK, I've not used this, but it is based on Ubuntu and therefor uses GNOME. So does Ubuntu Multimedia. Yeck. However, both manage to make a distro that looks stunning -- this is what I want for my KDE use! I imagine soon someone will say, "well then of course, use PCLinuxOS!"

PCLinuxOS: Yes, I could use this distro, and I am eagerly awaiting the 2008 release (there is absolutly no news on its home page/news about its release though). But, even with its Synaptic package management, this is still an RPM-based distro, which I will not return to with a smile. I use Debian and Redhat on our servers at work, and guess which always is the easier to use and administer -- yep, Debian with its DEB packages, and never Redhat with its RPM packages. I fear that PCLinuxOS is going to cause me pains with the RPMs, and I know that its forums are less busy, meaning I have less chance to solve issues that pop up. Also, the package list here is about 7,000 applications, far short of the *buntus, which themselves are short of the official Debian available programs (not to mention the fantastic debian-multimedia repositories). Will PCLinuxOS have all of the apps I want? Will support be as easy to find? Will third-party apps have available RPMs to install if PCLinuxOS doesn't supply the package themselves?

Fedora: Yes, a KDE distro, but based on the pain that is Red Hat, and also RPM-based. I'll pass for now.


In short, I want the high-quality and high-profile distribution that Ubuntu provides, without being two releases behind in the system management tools that Kubuntu seems to run. I want a great Debian-based distro that runs KDE and takes over the world -- NOT a GNOME based distro that happens to supply KDE packages (*buntu); NOT a KDE-based distro that requires RPMs (PCLinuxOS); and NOT a fantastic overall distro that just happens to be kinda boring (Debian). I want a large, active community that focuses on fixing the same issues that I may be having in KDE, not in GNOME.

After checking out Kubuntu 8.04, I might move my home system to Debian, since it always is so nice at work, and probably has the largest community and the most vanilla KDE (meaning, other KDE people can help, even if they're not Debian users). Or, I'll find the best KDE4 community and move there, perhaps.

Basically, I want a Kanonikal.

18 Comments:

  • At 03 March, 2008 01:40 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Have a look @ sidux. Based on Debian Sid, KDE as default desktop environment, nice and competent community. It's not as newbie-friendly as kubuntu, but far from advanced stuff like arch. I'm using it for about a year now, and still I would say it's the best distro I ever used.
    www.sidux.com

     
  • At 03 March, 2008 01:48 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    I also got tired of Kubuntu and got bored with it, and made the switch to Arch. Networking is much easier now with NetworkManager, and KDE is fantastic if you use the KDEMod packages. Also, as far as the package list goes, if something's not in the official repos you can always build it. Check out the AUR (Arch User Repository) for user created PKGBUILD files. If one's not there, it's a trivial matter to make one yourself and install the app you need from source.

     
  • At 03 March, 2008 02:43 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    "PCLinuxOS: Yes, I could use this distro, and I am eagerly awaiting the 2008 release (there is absolutly no news on its home page/news about its release though)."
    PCLinux is designed to be a distro you dont have to wait for a new release and reinstall(as was one of your complaints about kubuntu). You simply install PCLinux 2007 and install all updates and you have 2008.There will be a 2008 released soon but that will be mainly for the convenience of new users. Personally I find their system of updating much more convenient than reinstalling the whole system. Although for an experienced linux user there is probably not much challenge in a system that configures itself and very seldom has any problems. I do disagree with your statement that "I know that its forums are less busy, meaning I have less chance to solve issues that pop up" because in my experience PCLinux has one of the best and most competent support forums available.

     
  • At 03 March, 2008 04:46 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    A small correction:
    Arch Linux ain't based on Slackware, but built using Linux From Scratch.

     
  • At 03 March, 2008 04:52 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Let's see.
    You want a non-RPM distro, not too easy, but easy enough for laptops, with a big community, and pre-customized default theme.
    I'd personally suggest Mepis: the latest release has much better artwork, the fishtank is gone, and if you don't like the tools you can use it just as Debian (it's sarge-based), but easy to configure for laptops. Give it a try.
    Otherwise, the closest is Sidux.

     
  • At 03 March, 2008 05:43 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    You are talking about Debian ... experimental.

    Replace your testing with experimental and have a look here :
    http://pkg-kde.alioth.debian.org/experimental.html

    Enjoy!! and feedback your experience =)

     
  • At 03 March, 2008 06:50 , Blogger Anonymo said...

    Actually Arch is based of Crux Linux

     
  • At 03 March, 2008 08:05 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    "Arch is based of Crux Linux" is like "Mandriva is based on Red Hat" or "SUSE is based on Slackware". Sure, they started that way, but now their development is completely autonomous and indipendent.

     
  • At 03 March, 2008 08:24 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    What exactly is the issue with rpms?

    The only issue i know of is a very newbie-like misunderstanding of rpms. rpms built for one distribution are not nessesarily compatible with another. The Debs you COULD say the same thing except that the two biggest deb users are Debian and Ubuntu, and ubuntu did the commendable thing of being totally compatible with debian's debs. That's pretty much it.

     
  • At 03 March, 2008 09:58 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Take a look at Mepis7 or frugalware linux.
    You will like both of them :-)

     
  • At 03 March, 2008 11:30 , Blogger Mitch said...

    If you want to avoid blue and are willing to try Gentoo, how about Sabayon?

     
  • At 03 March, 2008 11:56 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    I agree about PCLinuxOS. I would definitely give it a shot if it were based on DEB instead of RPM. I've used many RPM based distros over the years and hated them all after a little while. Installation never seems to just work.

    Chad
    http://linuxappfinder.com/

     
  • At 03 March, 2008 12:00 , Blogger Scott Jordan said...

    Seems your main objection to PCLinuxOS is its rpm based way of doing things and its repos having "only" 7k entries.

    First, those 7k entries are tested and vetted and nicely maintained. I hosed my first Ubuntu installation by installing stuff from its repos that turned out not to have been tested or configured properly. The PCLOS guys are more careful.

    You ask if it will have the software you want and need. Easy enough to find out-- just run Synaptic and do a search.

    In my experience, if there's something you want and it's not there, wait a week, and it'll probably pop-up.

    Being rpm based is a total don't-care with this distro. You never interact with the rpm process. Whatever they're doing in Synaptic is painless, powerful and well-wrung-out. "Pay no attention to the package manager behind the curtain..."

    Meanwhile, I've installed some stuff from outside the repos without trouble... mostly proprietary stuff such as VMWare Player, Adobe Acrobat, a few other things of that sort. No problem.

    The thing about PCLOS is that it just works, and works responsively and reliably. Its repos will be a little bit less exuberant by necessity, since they're so meticulously maintained and apps must run a gauntlet of tests before they're allowed in. As an everyday desktop environment, it's pretty much perfect, and well-supported. You seem to sense this, judging from your comments, so I'd recommend giving it a more extended try.

     
  • At 03 March, 2008 15:40 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Not sure why you would think all RPM based distros the same. Texstar build and test most rpms for PCLinuxOS that alone makes it better. I would have to ask, have you even tried it?

     
  • At 03 March, 2008 19:44 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Recently, I've tried both PCLinuxOS and Mandriva and I liked them both. You should try them too.

     
  • At 06 March, 2008 04:49 , Anonymous Mark Wyatt said...

    Quote:

    "First, those 7k entries are tested and vetted and nicely maintained. I hosed my first Ubuntu installation by installing stuff from its repos that turned out not to have been tested or configured properly. The PCLOS guys are more careful."

    Yeah, I had exactly the same problem with 6.06/6.06.1. Now I've got roughly that feature on a box with difficult hardware as standard from 7.10. Can't say that helps me feel that (k)Ubuntu is a good thing.

    If it weren't so difficult to get stuff to install here, I'd have changed already.

    On my laptops I use SuSE and I am happy. You have to buy in to the whole Yast thing or there is no point though, and yast is, err, a bit lumbering. This is unlike my previous experience with RedHat, where RPM hell was just a fact of life.

    It ain't RPMs per se that are the problem, but good apps/applets for managing them.

    You also feel with kubuntu that you've got the poor relation, and I don't think Mark Shuttleworth is happy with that either, but it is a fact.

    Quote:
    "You simply install PCLinux 2007 and install all updates and you have 2008."

    And I'm not going to say that is a bad thing, but it does make presumptions about the amount of net bandwidth available.

     
  • At 28 August, 2008 22:25 , Anonymous Jake said...

    I too escaped from RPM Hell (SUSE) into DEB wonderful land. I'm typing this from a machine running Debian/kFreeBSD. My main desktop runs Kubuntu. My laptop runs Sidux, Xubuntu, and Mandriva. Yes, Mandriva.

    I think that Mandriva is the ultimate KDE distro for now. Mandriva is a great all around system. It is much better and more polished than the PCLinuxOS that is based on Mandriva (I have had PCLOS on the system in the past, which caused it to overheat). Mandriva has excellent hardware support, it has great repositories of software (I don't think I've ever had to look for an rpm on it, except for propietary software), and is the best KDE distro I have ever used.

    I may be migrating some of my other machines over sometime... for now I just don't want to mess with their configuration.

     
  • At 20 March, 2009 10:25 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    I agree with the above poster that Mandriva is the Super KDE distro you might want. It's the best KDE distro, period.

    Its only apparent flaw is it uses RPM - but surprise - it's the only RPM based distro which I haven't experienced RPM hell. The reason is urpmi. It's Mandriva's equivalent of apt, and very powerful. Mandriva and urpmi may very well change your impression of RPM.

     

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